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28 January 2006 @ 01:19 am
An Attack on Postmodernism  
Postmodernism is still quite a powerful sect of belief in today's society; radical skepticism, subjectivism and nihilism seem almost undefeatable because of their premises. That is, if one accepts postmodernism, making an attack against postmodernism is essentially powerless, because it would only show both that we are incapable of knowing (even through the lens of postmodernism) and that any attack that could be made would be a product of the person and not necessarily the truth (which is totally unknowable.)

I have my reservations about postmodernism, and most people generally do as well when first confronted with the idea. Certainly, it seems like we know things, we can predict things, and we act in ways which seem to prove this true. I have no fear of my gasoline becoming urine while I'm driving my car. I do not worry that when I type on my computer that my monitor will turn into a snake and attack me. I do not question whether or not I will be propelled forward if I walk in such a direction. Yet, idealistically, it would seem that all these cases could happen, if we are to abstain from making claims to truth. So, then, what I am left with is a totally chaotic reality which has no order, meaning or knowable existence. I can not appeal to any authorities, because all authorities are flawed in their own ways; science is too empirical, religion is too ideal, social convention is biased by the society, and so on. I am left without a guide to follow except for my own intuitions and the idea that "all people are right in their own way."

Ideally, I think postmodernism is problematic. That is, I do not think postmodernism accepts how powerful ideas are; the movement is too caught up in deconstructing every idea they can that they forget what it is they are deconstructing and that some ideas exist in reality because of their use and not merely because of convention. I would contend that postmodernism seems to merely disregard the power of ideas; that is, it seems to accept that people are a product of what they believe, but fails to make the correlation that if someone has an idea which is detrimental to their life, or the lives of others, that this idea is detrimental and can cause great harm. A postmodernist wouldn't want to make such a claim, stating that "I am in no position to judge;" but, surely, thousands of years of social progress can't be totally arbitrary, can it? If we are in no state to judge other's ideas, only understand them, what is the point to the understanding? Worst of all, I think many postmodernists are so caught up in understanding other's ideas that they forget that these ideas can be judged based on some types of reasoning. That is, we can talk about the worth of an idea versus another based on contexts and what tools we use to measure them; whether they be moral tools, logical tools, or religious tools; and that these tools offer us some method and reasoning to follow to create ourselves as people rather than be content with being somebody who cannot, in good conscience, make judgements, and thus, progress in life. (A life without judgements is a life of blind adherence to whatever situation is presented. Attempting to change the situation shows that you have made a judgement that another situation would be better, and thus, you can not be fully prescribing to the postmodern ethic. A true postmodernist can not think for himself, and expects the same from everyone else.) Furthermore, a moral subjectivist needs to bat an eye at things most people find morally reprehensible; Nazism was "just a product of the societal factors in Germany during the time. The Nazis can not be blamed." This seems nonsensical to me; it seems like postmodernism wishes to nullify the existence of evil by merely shrugging at it and saying that "Don't worry, it wasn't your fault, it is just your nature." I think the standpoint of "no standpoint" shouldn't be used so hastily; that is, if there is evidence and tools to analyze this evidence, then it is acceptable to do so. "No standpoint" would be reserved for when there is not enough information to reasonably analyze anything and all the tools which one could use provide no more use in such a context than any other (This, I think, is the realm of "absolute knowledge", that is, whatever knowledge is outside the grasp of human understanding. I would contend that "absolute knowledge" doesn't exist in any sort of specific way, but is merely a function of our language and intuitions to describe what it is we do not understand. "Absolute knowledge", then, is merely potential knowledge, for when we learn something more about "absolute knowledge", we also raise more questions and expand the potential power of our consciousness.) However, knowledge and ideas are important; people act on what they believe and thus, ideas not only build nations but destroy them, not only increase the quality of life but diminish it, and not only help people live but also kill. To simply say that no side is always the best side of argument for us to be "truthful" is to disregard that life does matter, to us, viscerally, and that we do have our own goals and desires. A human with no desires for anything is, essentially, dead or waiting to die.

The first point I want to make is that such a statement (moral subjectivism) implies there is no such thing as 'free will.' While I certainly would agree that there are limits to how free our will is and that our will is heavily influenced by our situation, nothing would ever change if everyone merely was following their instinctual drives and the will of the society. No new ideas could be produced, and thus, we shouldn't have houses; we should still be living in the forest with the rest of the animals.

Second, I would like to say that there must be a way to transcend postmodernism, since the end result of knowledge certainly couldn't only be confusion. Our lives have patterns, and there are many different tools we use to predict such patterns: cause and effect, psychology, political science, economics, mechanistic science, etc. If these tools have uses, then how can truth be totally arbitrary and unknowable? How do these tools work in a totally random, causal-less world that is completely unknown to the human mind? These things are all human inventions which have proved extremely useful over the centuries. How can a postmodernist account for this if all ideas are essentially equal in worth? How can we account for the fact that some systems of belief offer us more productive solutions than others?

Furthermore, postmodernism, in critiquing other points of view, proves itself wrong. Postmodernism uses tools such as reason, psychology and sociology to show how biased (or flawed) other positions are. However, such statements are claims to truth; the antithesis to the postmodern ethic.

In the end, I think what postmodernists tend to forget is that their theory is the same as any other theory and should be integrated into their conceptual tool-set rather than used as, exclusively, 'the best tool.' It has its uses, strengths, and weaknesses, but it fails at becoming what everyone wishes their philosophy to be: a full textbook to describe life. Of course, the postmodernists feel that they have sidestepped that claim by claiming that statement as true as a foundation, but such a foundation does not support any room for truth and action, and thus, is deficient as a life philosophy or a bastion of truth.
 
 
( 16 comments — Leave a comment )
This isn't baseball...This is madness![info]colintj on January 28th, 2006 08:11 am (UTC)
"Furthermore, postmodernism, in critiquing other points of view, proves itself wrong. Postmodernism uses tools such as reason, psychology and sociology to show how biased (or flawed) other positions are. However, such statements are claims to truth; the antithesis to the postmodern ethic."

Postmodernism is fundamentally a critique, exposing the underlying assumptions and structure, especially as applies to absolute truth. Postmodernists acknowledge the paradigms they exist in...they have no other way of communicating, otherwise. Ideologies upon ideologies that cannot be escaped, especially one of language. So your approach to "what postmodernism is" is incorrect in my opinion, as is the supposed lack of awareness.
This isn't baseball...This is madness![info]colintj on January 28th, 2006 08:13 am (UTC)
In fact I would say generally your post is plagued by a misrepresentation of what postmodernism is.
watershed2[info]watershed2 on January 28th, 2006 08:05 pm (UTC)
I agree.
rexlupis[info]rexlupis on January 29th, 2006 01:27 am (UTC)
Mmm... most likely. I'm attacking the extremes here, especially the idea that people claim is borne out of 'postmodernism' that "Everyone is right!"

If that is true, then my interpretation of postmodernism is an accurate interpretation!

I'm more going after the subjectivists/relativists, which, I think, is where postmodernism leads us to.
[info]alexeus on January 28th, 2006 11:49 am (UTC)
But the problem is that your monitor actually can turn into a snake and attack you. That what modern physics says.
one strange beasty[info]nix_nevermind on January 28th, 2006 06:41 pm (UTC)
Oh, great! Maybe you can help me out with this problem from my quantum physics class...
thales1940[info]thales1940 on January 29th, 2006 12:48 am (UTC)
check your assumptions
Your post implies that you think things should make sense. If that is not true, why bother. If true, you already have all the tools you need. Figure it out.
rexlupis[info]rexlupis on January 29th, 2006 01:54 am (UTC)
Re: check your assumptions
Reality isn't black and white, true or false, or divisible to logical/illogical. It is one way to describe reality, and is useful when coming to a final conclusion, but it would seem that you can't talk about 'making sense' of 'red.' We have a sensation of red, but can we say that 'red makes sense?' We can talk about wavelengths of light, and what spectrum produces red... Does this make one red more true than another? I guess we could talk about our definition of the wave-lengths which create 'true' redness, and the 'closer to true redness' the wavelength is, does that make it more or less true that it is 'red'?
What I'm trying to say is that just because you can construct your reality into a logical positivist sort of standpoint (right or wrong, black or white, true or false), it seems to limit our actual understanding and experience of reality. It would seem to me that we experience shades of truth, not absolute bursts of "trueness" or "falsehood." It is somewhat true that logical positivism works. It is somewhat false that reality is subjective. Solipsism is somewhat true. Empirical fact is somewhat true. The "all or nothing" approach doesn't give anyone much conceptual room to work with, and there is an overabundance of information which doesn't fit into the 'all or nothing' approach. If you're happy with labelling everyone who has a spiritual type experience as insane, then most humans are totally mad... These people have experiences of things they can't describe. What is to be said about that? There's far too many occurances to just shrug off and state "Well, that is simply (insert explanation here.)"
Our explanations are created by us and are somewhat deficient at getting at precisely what is occuring. As Nietzsche put it, we are creating metaphors for reality... We say that reality is this, or that, but we have no absolute way of knowing. The more we learn of reality, the more complex our knowledge set becomes, and the harder it is to apply logical reasoning. As we gather more knowledge, we tend to find solutions so that it begins to make "more sense", but we also tend to learn or theorize about something which we still have not experienced or understand in doing so. (With every new growth in technology and knowledge comes a growth in potential, which means the realisation of something unknown, outside the bounds of human understanding.)
The fact of the matter is that I will not argue that anything is innately outside the bounds of human understanding except for "absolute" or "all knowledge." This is simply because our knowledge is limitless, no matter how much we understand our discoveries point us towards other discoveries... There is no limit to human understanding or imagination in potential... In practice, the only limit is the state of affairs...
thales1940[info]thales1940 on January 29th, 2006 06:06 am (UTC)
This is progress
Knowledge is a marriage. When you speak of the limited nature of experience you are right, but are seeing only half of the picture while actively using the whole thing. The statement that knowledge is open-ended and so, clearly never finished, would seem to dismiss absolute knowledge. But you are failing to recognize the absolute nature of the claim. You are saying for sure, there are no absolutes. Certainty comes from a marriage between the inductive evidence of our senses which have never experienced an absolute and the deductive nature of our logic which says its always been that way. ""Always" and "never" are terms that imply numerical equality to the cardinal 100%.

It is common to suppose that any given adult with normal intelligence can tell you how many fingers he has. But I dare say that precious few people have a def. that clearly marks where the fingers end and the hand begins, at some point they just blend together. Both answers are correct depending on the context. Most of the time it is not necessary to know the difference, but if the occasion arises, induction could tell us.

I have found these ideas are far easier to make clear to people from cultures that go back five thousand years and more. India, Egypt; they know the history better, they grew up with it, we didn't.

Life is a fragile commodity. It doesn't take a large variation in some requirements to wipe us out of existence, ergo the close attention to climate change. The only way the religious right can prove their position is for god to step forward and identify himself. Till then, they are whistling in the wind. Still, about half of us take religion seriously and even make important decisions. Read the arguments in Wa. state last week by the church trying to persuade the lawmakers into rejecting a gay friendly law. Their argument reduces to - god says so - in a country that is based on the secular view, ie, no state church.
fried2styles[info]fried2styles on January 30th, 2006 06:34 am (UTC)
I can add much else to the above comments, but I found one point you made very troubling: You claimed that moral subjectivism robs us the abilty to judge the actions of others, yoou say it forces/leads us to "bat our eyes"(I think you the phrase you mean is that it "doesn`t bat an eye") at horrible crimes, like the holocaust.

My response is simple: even if we doubt the existance of some unimpeacheable standard of Good and Evil we can still make moral choices, and indeed for the existentialist it is our sole goal in life. The point is to deny that we need some "Higher Authority", to male these claims, when we do not; we are rational and mortal, which is plenty of authority by itself.
rexlupis[info]rexlupis on January 31st, 2006 12:19 am (UTC)
You're still appealing to a moral authority; rationality and human mortality; an ideal form of human existence, etc.

Full-on moral subjectivism can't allow for even those authorities to be considered...
All the Strange Hours: prussian eagle[info]mendaciloquent on March 10th, 2006 01:02 am (UTC)
Just surfing around and I found this entry...

I'd like a little clarification, if you have the time. What "postmodernism" are you talking about here? It's unclear what thinkers you're referring to, and I haven't encountered any who would advocate some of the things you mention here (such as the idea that material substances can spontaneously and unpredictably change).

Anyway, I found it interesting, and was hoping you could tell me which thinker you had in mind when writing this.
rexlupis[info]rexlupis on March 10th, 2006 01:34 am (UTC)
It wasn't so much an attack on any postmodernist thinker in particular, more of an attack on what I'd seen of the postmodernist movement. It's not a well informed critique, just a critique from "when I hear people espouse a postmodernist way of thinking, they often retreat to statements such as 'anything is possible', or 'there is no wrong answer', and I find such a statement to be very damaging to the pursuit of knowledge."

There was a follow up post in your community where I stated "You've "caught" me! I don't know much about postmodernism. Where should I start?"

There were some that said that my critique was decisively pomo, and others that said it wasn't well informed at all.

I was more just throwing gas on the fire.

The thing I found funny about the whole thing was that I had people telling me I was "wrong" about pomo, and that seems to be something a pomo couldn't possibly say... But, yet, it would be an accurate assessment!
All the Strange Hours[info]mendaciloquent on March 10th, 2006 02:02 am (UTC)
Why do you think someone couldn't be wrong about postmodernism?

I don't really blame people for having uninformed views about what postmodernism is. I studied in a very anti-pomo department, and the students and even the professors there sort of promulgated this idea that "postmodernism" is this idea that there's no such thing as truth, that "everything is relative", and that postmodernists don't think we can believe in anything.

Usually the argument goes something like a reformulation of the Liar's Paradox:

1. Postmodernism is the idea that nothing is true.
2. Therefore, postmodernists think "nothing is true" is true.
3. If (2) is true, then (1) is false; if (2) is untrue, then (1) is also false.
4. Therefore, postmodernism is false.

Now, most philosophy students would be skeptical if someone told them that an entire field of study could be "disproven" in such a simple way. I was such a student, so I decided to read postmodern philosophy in order to find out for myself.

Needless to say, I not only found the ideas of my professors to be inaccurate, but frustratingly dishonest, almost bigoted. They treated postmodernism as a sort of infectious disease that was threatening to turn everyone into nihilistic art critics or something. It kind of reminded me of how fundamentalist Christians talk about homosexuals.

Anyway, postmodern philosophy is often difficult to read, but very interesting. It's also extremely heterogeneous. Some have even suggested that the term not even be used, simply because it doesn't really refer to any single kind of thinking.
rexlupis[info]rexlupis on March 10th, 2006 02:08 am (UTC)
Why do you think someone couldn't be wrong about postmodernism?

You sort of answer it yourself:

It's also extremely heterogeneous. Some have even suggested that the term not even be used, simply because it doesn't really refer to any single kind of thinking.

I always associated skepticism/subjectivism with PoMo as well... Is this an inaccurate assessment? If it isn't, then it follows that it would be hard to tell someone that they are decisively "wrong" about anything...
All the Strange Hours: prussian eagle[info]mendaciloquent on March 10th, 2006 06:42 pm (UTC)
I always associated skepticism/subjectivism with PoMo as well... Is this an inaccurate assessment? If it isn't, then it follows that it would be hard to tell someone that they are decisively "wrong" about anything...

Yes, it's sort of inaccurate, for a few different reasons.

Classical skepticism/subjectivism is, in fact, just as alive in analytic philosophy and other philosophical traditions as it is in postmodern philosophy. You could even go so far as to say that the problem of skepticism is taken more seriously there than in postmodernism.

Also, things like the recognition of subjectivity often don't have much to do with the way it is often portrayed in such phrases as "everything is subjective", meaning that there's really no such things as truth. Kant, for example, famously argued for the importance of the human subject, yet at the same time had a fairly conservative view of the importance and objectivity of natural science. This is true of Heidegger and Merleau-Ponty too, and it's also true of many "postmodern" philosophers.

A few things off the top of my head, just to use as examples...

Pierre Bourdieu, for example, relies very much on historical evidence in his analysis of Western culture and its place in society. There's no question for him that the world is "real", or that we can know things that are true... we could even say that these questions are boring for Bourdieu.

The same is true for Foucault. In fact, Foucault in a certain way is critical of the subject, and shows how the subject of Descartes is actually a historically conditioned entity. In that respect, the kind of Cartesian skepticism you're talking about here is actually attacked by Foucault.

The same is true, though in a different way, for Deleuze and Guattari. They critique Freud and psychoanalysis, and in general they're critical of the idea of "totalizing theories" -- the idea that we can reduce all fields of human knowledge or behavior down to a single theory. They claim that such attempts often marginalize, hide, or pass-over other forms of knowledge. But such a criticism isn't aimed at destroying the idea of "truth" in general -- it's actually aimed at broadening it and making it more complete.

So yes, I'd say that the idea that postmodernism is equivalent to radical subjectivism/skepticism is basically an inaccurate myth.
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